Breeders do breed for fun - we would be lying if we pretended we didn't, and some attempt to breed for money, but my opinion of that is low: unless you're breeding an expensive breed you can only make a profit if you short-change the cats on welfare and feeding. Cat breeding is a hobby, not a business.
When you go to visit kittens the house is clean and tidy, the kittens are chubby and happy, their room is clean and neat and their litter trays are immaculate (or they should be!!). It's all so sweet, and it looks so easy. It's not. It is a constant round of cleaning, feeding, clearing up and trying to have a life at the same time. The bonus is the kittens who are glorious, but don't ever imagine it's easy!
One-off litters:
"I wanted to have one
or two litters for the children..."
So you want to put the entertainment of your children above
the welfare of your cat. Who are we kidding anyway, this is
not for the children, it's for you, or are the children
really going to pay the vets bills, clean the litter trays
three times a day, feed the kittens at least 5 times a day
when they wean, wash bedding every day, and generally care
for your cat?
"I wanted the children to experience it... "
But they're not going to experience it. They're not going
to have their lives put at risk (and pregnancy IS risky),
have an uncomfortable pregnancy, followed by an extremely
painful labour and then weeks of caring for the kittens,
feeding them and washing them constantly. The cat is the
one who experiences that, and unlike humans cats are
COMPLETELY INDIFFERENT to whether they have kittens or not.
Given the choice they would probably say 'no thankyou'
since having babies is exhausting, extremely painful,
increases the risk of mammary cancers, and shortens the
cat's life.
If you really think this is something your children ought
to experience, look at it from the cat's point of view: how
is your little queen going to feel about having your
children constantly tampering with her kittens? Most
mothers are very protective and get easily upset if they
feel their babies are being over-handled. If you're not
going to let the children play with the kittens (like toys)
what is the point, as they're not going to experience
anything more than they would experience visiting the
kittens of a good breeder near you.
Do you know anything at all about breeding, husbandry, the
sorts of illnesses that entire females can experience, the
difficulties that neo-natal kittens might get into? Do you
know anything about the following:
- Feline Leukaemia
- Feline AIDS
- pyometra
- intussusception
- eclampsia
- uterine inertia
- uterine torsion
- FCK
- retained placenta
- etc. etc. etc.
Have you thought about how to find a good stud cat, and what it is going to cost in blood tests and stud fees?
Are you prepared for your little darling to shriek her head off for 6-8 months until she is old enough to be mated, or will she just be allowed out to have it off with the local tom, and get pregnant before she is fully mature, and probably get feline AIDS into the bargain?
Are you going to be there 24 hours a day when your cat is due to kitten, staying up maybe three or four nights in a row in case she starts (they nearly always have them at night)? Can you be there day and night for the next 4 weeks in case she dies or has no milk, and the kittens have to be hand fed?
-o0o-
The following is a compilation of articles
and long messages that I and other breeders have written as
responses to people who have approached us about buying a
kitten for breeding (or breeding from a kitten sold as a
pet). It may be repetitive in places, but I haven’t
had time to edit it into one long article. Please
don’t feel I’m trying to put you off, but
it’s all stuff you need to consider before deciding
whether breeding is for you.
If you have any intentions of breeding, you MUST make sure
that you have discussed this with the breeder of the kitten
first, before getting into the position of buying a kitten
from him/her. Some lines are 'protected' so the stud owner
may specifically prohibit breeding from the resulting
kittens for a variety of reasons. I have bred pet Burmese
whom I would absolutely not allow to go for breeding
because I knew of problems in the lines that might mean
breeding difficulties for future offspring. This made no
difference to the health of the kittens I was selling, but
they were not from lines that I would be happy to see in
the general breeding gene pool.
If you're planning on breeding there are a whole bundle of
simple practical things that you need to consider first,
such as the fact that you MUST be there 24 hours a day when
the queen is due - you cannot be going out to work as you
can't predict exactly when she'll deliver, and
complications are not rare. Also, from about 4 weeks old,
you need to be there to do feeds for the kittens during the
day as well as am and pm, and you may also have to hand
feed the entire litter every 2-3 hours if something happens
to the queen, or if she has no milk, again not compatible
with working away from home. You can't take a holiday when
the queen is coming up to full term in case something goes
wrong, and you can't go away when you have kittens (for 13
weeks) because they need constant care and attention -- a
kitten can get ill and die within 24 hours!
You will need to know quite a bit about diet and what is
the best way to feed a pregnant and nursing queen, and the
healthiest way to raise kittens. Not all cat foods are good
for your cat! It also helps a lot if you have an
experienced breeder nearby who can come out and be a
midwife the first time, so they can tell you if everything
is going as it should, or if you need to call the vet for a
caesarian before the queen is too weak to recover from it.
Would you know how to spot failing milk or mastitis in a
queen before it was 'too late'? There's so much to be aware
of!
I have a novice Siamese breeder under my wing at the moment
who has just raised her first litter. The one thing I
didn't think to tell her was: 'don't take them to your
daughter's school for show-and-tell when they're only 4
weeks old!!!!!' I was aghast! She was lucky not to lose
them, and the queen was VERY distressed -- never mind the
appalling consequences of a class full of 10-year-olds all
going home and DEMANDING that they also have a litter of
(unwanted, moggy) kittens, bred from the local Tom who
probably carries every incurable disease under the sun.
Sometimes the kittens who are cute and darling one moment
are little monsters weeing all over the furniture the next!
I know I sound discouraging, but I'm really not, and I'm as
keen as anyone to get new Tonkinese breeders going.
However, it's far better to go into it with your eyes open
and do the best possible job right from the start, than
find yourself in the middle of a disaster with your beloved
queen dying.
-o0o-
Question:
Hi, My seal point was bought as a pet, and
as such is not considered as eligible to breed.
However, I have decided to do this once only as members of
my family would like a kitten, and I want to 'have kittens'
once before she is neutered. She will be ready to mate in
May 2003.
I will go down the route of mixed breed if a stud cannot be
found, but would prefer not to. I understand testing of my
cat is needed and I am willing to do all that is required
to ensure the health of the cats concerned.
Maybe you could help?
Answer:
You must not on any account breed from
your girl, as that would be a serious breach of trust as
well as of the legal binding contract that you entered into
when you bought the kitten. You bought her knowingly as a
pet and not for breeding, and you agreed that at the time
of sale. You can't change your mind without the permission
of the breeder. If members of your family want a kitten
they should go to a reputable breeder and buy one, not look
for freebies from you. If you breed from her you are in
fact breaking the law—sorry to be blunt, but you need
to know—and some breeders would prosecute (I know
several who have!). As a breeder I would be absolutely
livid if I found out that someone I had sold a kitten to on
the clear understanding that she was not to be bred from,
had decided to go against that contract.
Contracts aside, there may be many reasons why your kitten
was not sold as a breeding cat: the breeder may have had
worries about the line in that any kittens may have a
genetic defect carried, but not manifested, in the mother.
Also, you may not be best placed to tell whether the girl
is big enough to breed—it's often difficult to tell,
but you should ask your vet.
Unfortunately there will be a problem with a registered
stud. Stud owners are absolutely not allowed to let queens
on the inactive register come in to stud, or they will get
into terrible trouble with the governing council and the
breeder of the kitten, so I suspect that way would not be
open to you in any case unless you get the breeder's
permission. Have you approached her original breeder about
this? You may find that she's not entirely unhelpful.
98% of unneutered tom cats carry leukaemia and feline AIDS
(just for starters). So, if your girl is allowed to mate
with one it is likely she would end up dying from one of
these diseases (the Leukaemia vaccine is only about 80%
effective). So, it is obviously preferable if you can find
a proper stud. Test fees are about £40, and stud fees are
£100 upwards.
Is your girl a modern show-type Siamese, or an old-style
one? The show type cats are far more difficult to breed
from as they are likely to have difficulties that a heavier
and more solid cat would not experience. Very high
proportions have uterine inertia, which is lethal unless
caught early—either way the kittens usually do not
survive. This may be a reason that the breeder put her on
the inactive register, if she knew that there was this
problem in the line.
The following is what I say to anyone (not just you) who
comes to me to ask about breeding with their girl (even one
on the active register). When you go to choose your kitten,
it's all wonderful and clean and cute and you really have
no idea what has gone into keeping everything that way.
Constant litter-tray cleaning for 12 weeks, perhaps dealing
with vomiting and diarrhoea running through the whole
litter perhaps more than once during that time, finding
puddles of piddle everywhere, maybe the breeder has had the
heartbreak of kittens dying too—it's not the way it
looks to the short-term visitor! If I sell a kitten to a
novice breeder I make sure that I can be available for
their first litter(s) as a midwife and to help them keep an
eye on things and spot conditions that they won't know
about as a novice. You need to have an experienced breeder
on hand if you go ahead or the risks are much higher.
Can you put up with your baby shrieking the house down on
heat every other week for 6 months until she's ready to
mate? A calling queen is very vulnerable to pyometra, and
if it's not spotted, the queen almost always dies. Allowing
your girl to breed could be a disaster—I'm sure you
love her very much: are you prepared to risk losing her if
she dies doing this? Most people don't know about all the
things that could go wrong, and this is particularly likely
with Siamese who are not a strong breed and often have
birthing difficulties. This is why registered breeders
operate a mentoring system to help new breeders learn the
ropes. Once pregnant, the queen could have uterine inertia,
and you wouldn't know how to spot it before it kills her by
becoming pyometra. Do you know about uterine torsion,
eclampsia and pre-eclampsia—all life-threatening? The
queen could get a kitten stuck and die in kittening and
then you're left with a dead litter and queen or kittens
who have to be hand-reared—that means hand feeds
every two hours, 24 hours a day for three weeks at least.
Can you commit yourself to this if necessary?
Are you able to deal with 'blood and guts'—suppose
the queen won't accept the kittens and won't clean them up
when they're born or suckle them—can you tie off
their cords and do all this for her? Will you be there with
her 24 hours until the kittens are born to make sure none
of this happens when you're out of the house?
Are you able to be at home full time from the last week of
the pregnancy and on into the first three weeks (possibly
more) of the kittens lives? If the queen dies, or has no
milk, you will have to do 3-hour feeds every day and night
for weeks until they can be weaned. Do you have a very good
vet who is experienced with pedigree breeders and breeding
queens? If the answer to these questions is no, you won't
be able to give her and the kittens the care she needs and
you should not consider even one litter.
Could you cope with the heartbreak of the whole litter
dying slowly in front of your eyes when they're 3-4 weeks
old, and there's nothing you can do? This is not an idle
question—it happens about 10% of the time with
pedigree litters unless you're lucky. A friend of mine has
just had it happen—out of 7 kittens, only 2 survived,
and she had to watch 5 die from FCK one by
one—gasping for breath. She couldn't put them down
because sometimes they recover (as two of them did), and
also the queen would have got raging mastitis if she
suddenly lost all her kittens. She was devastated—do
you even know what FCK is?
Finally, can you afford to do this? A caesarean with even
minor complications could cost you £500 upwards,
particularly in the middle of the night, and none of the
kittens may survive. Every kitten (pedigree or not) costs
about £650 to rear properly, assuming nothing goes wrong,
and if you're giving yours away to the family you won't
even make part of that back. Siamese are notoriously liable
to unknown illnesses—I had a vet's bill well over
£1000 by the time I got through with my last litter,
because an infection was brought in by a visitor. That's
without the cost of cat-litter and food and so on. Also,
the queen will eat like a horse throughout her pregnancy.
This is why kittens are sold and not given away—even
at £400 a head I make a significant loss.
For most queens it's a painful and not very pleasant
business, and contrary to long-standing myths, it's not
better for a girl to have a litter before
neutering—every litter shortens a girl's life.
I'm sorry to be off-putting, but I have had heartbreak,
exhaustion and misery sometimes, and I won't hide that from
you. At the end of my last litter I swore I'd never do it
again. I know I will, as I love my babies to distraction,
and it's so good to see the happiness of a new owner at the
end of it all, and knowing that I am giving them a healthy,
well-adjusted kitten instead of something awful that some
backyard breeder has produced. I find it very hard to find
the right homes for my babies, and I'm even more careful if
I allow a kitten to go for breeding—I have only sold
3 kittens for breeding in 16 years, and two went to people
I already knew well, and who were experienced breeders.
So that's all the bad stuff. If you are still sure you want
to go ahead with this I think the first thing you MUST do
is talk to the breeder and try to convince her to agree to
this. If you fail you have lost nothing. She might be
prepared to speak to a stud owner and allow a single mating
without transferring the cat to the active register. If
you're determined to breed it would be far preferable for
you to go to a registered stud than to let her be got at by
the local STD-carrier!
I'm sure you've come up against very negative reactions
with other people. The best advice I could give you would
be not to breed because it's not easy, it's not kind to the
queen, and it's not fun most of the time, though obviously
there are rewards, particularly when things go well, and
that is probably why those of us who stick with it continue
to breed.
-o0o-
In
reply to the informative (and quite alarming!) article
about what can go wrong in the breeding process, I would
like to relate a friend's experiences. I've changed her
name to protect her marriage! Jane's problems began before
her female was even pregnant, as she was a very reluctant
caller, and Jane had to cancel a family holiday when Mattie
finally called. The good news was that she became pregnant
that first visit. Very pleased with herself, Jane sat back
to wait for babies.
Problems began to emerge ten days before the kittens were
due, when Mattie began to bleed. A visit to the vets
reassured Jane, but an antibiotic shot and an examination
cost her £25. Coupled with the stud fee and tests she had
already spent over £200.
Mattie eventually went into labour on her due day, but
suffered from uterine inertia and at midnight a locum vet
had to be called in, Jane's own vet being on holiday. The
kittens were born by Caesarian-section, and the poor mother
came home shaved from neck to tail and with a large cut
along her middle held together by metal staples. To stop
Mattie scrabbling at her scar, the vet put her in a plastic
collar. Heavily drugged, she didn't want to know her
kittens, who also had taken a good dose of anaesthetic.
Because the queen was really too small for breeding the
kittens were a little squashed, and one in particular
seemed to have a badly bruised tail.
Two days later, after hand feeding every three hours, all
the kittens were thriving except the boy with the damaged
tail. The queen could not be left alone for long as she
hated the collar and potentially could damage the kittens
thrashing around with it. Jane had been unable to go to
work and had lost wages by being forced to stay at home,
though she would not have dreamed of leaving her beloved
girl. The locum vet had sent a bill for £500 for the
midnight caesarian, which didn't sweeten the pill much!
The little mother ended up with an infection at the site of
her wound, because of the clips which the vet had used for
quickness (he said). The kitten with the tail suddenly
became worse and had to be hospitalized for removal of part
of his tail: more expense. The kittens were barely 2 weeks
old and Jane had still not returned to work, and was only
getting a tiny amount of sleep as the queen was still in
the collar.
At last, six weeks down the line, and all was well, so Jane
took the family dog for a walk. The same evening several of
the kittens became seriously ill: another visit to the vet
and eventually after expensive tests it was diagnosed that
the kittens had been poisoned by 'crop spray residue'
brought in on Jane's clothes from her walk with the dog.
In all, the kittens cost £1500 in bills, including the cost
of the lost holiday, but not their routine vaccinations,
food, litter or the general costs of washing bedding and so
on. Jane didn't dare calculate that too. It brought her
marriage to the edge of destruction and she almost lost her
job. Somebody once said that cat breeding is marginally
less expensive than running an ocean-going yacht: after
hearing this you can understand why!
-o0o-
Experiences
of a Novice Breeder
After having non-pedigree cats for several years I decided
to take myself along to a cat show one rainy day to have a
look at some different types of cat that I had never
actually seen in the flesh. All the lovely cats on show
overwhelmed me. I caught sight of a lovely looking Siamese
which at that time was known as Classic Siamese.
I gave it a lot of thought before taking action. I phoned
round some breeders asking if they will let me have one of
their precious kittens for breeding. I soon realised that I
had to convince breeders that I was a responsible and
caring person and will do my absolute best on the breeding
side. What I hadn’t realised was that it was
difficult to find a kitten of the Old-Style.
To cut a long story short, I got my first and only Siamese
breeding girl back in December 2000. I had never bred or
even had a pedigree cat before so I emptied the local
library of books, the contents of which I soaked up like a
sponge, made a nuisance of myself with breeders asking all
sorts of questions and reading any and every cat magazine
that I came upon. I just had to be prepared, when the time
came, in case something went wrong. I had yet to experience
the shrieking of a female in season. I started reading up
on the genetics side a while back but that proved heavy
going and I told myself I will get back to that section
another time. I haven’t really had the time yet but I
am reading up on it a bit by bit.
I didn’t have any expectations really at the start,
as I knew absolutely nothing about breeding although I was
very surprised at the lack of Old-Style stud cats
available.
I kind of knew that it wouldn’t be plain sailing. I
already knew a bit about cat diseases, having seen a few
cats with various illnesses due to me helping out with Cats
Protection.
I have only ever had neutered cats. Established breeders
told me, very early on, that I wouldn’t be making
money out of it. That advice puzzled me at first, as it
didn’t enter my head. It wasn’t my reason for
wanting to breed. I thought it was just a nice hobby and I
wanted to learn about the Siamese and pass on nice pets to
other people. I just hoped that when the kittens were 13
weeks old, I could let them go to their new homes without
bawling my head off. I think I was a bit over the top when
selecting the right people for my kittens but they
didn’t seem put off by me placing them in the
mastermind chair and having the spotlight on them, firing
questions at them and giving them marks out of ten. The
first and only litter of Siamese went to new homes without
me causing a scene but it was a little nerve racking. I was
happy with the new owners and they were delighted with
their newly acquired family members.
On looking back to those nerve racking couple of days
before the birth, I suppose having not been in the
situation before, I did fuss a lot over my girl, watching
her and I found myself following her a lot just in case she
was about to have kittens before the due time. I remember
not getting proper sleep for the two nights before the
birth. On the actual day, she didn’t appear to be
near to having them and I was then caught off my guard
temporarily. However, at 11pm I noticed she wasn’t
around. Up I jumped up after dozing on the sofa and ran
upstairs to the kittening box and to my surprise, there she
was with one still damp kitten. I was suddenly flapping and
ran to get my ‘step by step how to have kittens
intruction manual’ Of course, she couldn’t
actually read and she didn’t actually care much about
it anyway. She must have already been to the ante-natal
classes as she just got on with it and I could see she was
not needing help but the fifth and last kitten was
stillborn and I did try everything in the book to revive it
but it seemed it wasn’t meant to be and I gave up
after what I think must have been 30 minutes. I was
disappointed at this and I felt awful about disposing of
the little lifeless body. I wasn’t ready for this to
happen. I was bothered by it for a few days but I just had
to tell myself it does happen and usually without
explanation and I just have to accept it. The other four
boys were fine. There was a problem with the milk at first.
I thought the kittens weren’t getting enough and I
phoned my vet at 3am much to his displeasure, no doubt, but
he said not to panic and come to the surgery first thing,
oh, and yes it just happened to be a Sunday! I did this and
an injection was given to improve the milk flow. All was OK
at last.
I did what I thought best for the little ones, weighing
them every morning and making sure they were at the right
temperature and getting enough milk. I took endless photos
of them all and bored friends out of their minds with heaps
of photos, each one exactly the same as the previous. Well,
they only have one position at the beginning. They
developed nicely and grew into lovely sociable little
terrors. The kittens went to their lovely new homes in two
pairs which was nice.
Things were going well then but a year ago my girl
developed pyometra or something of that nature and had
three failed matings after that. It has been very
disappointing. As a young cat and in good health I was
puzzled why it happened but there wasn’t anybody who
could really tell me what went wrong. There were a couple
of unclear explanations but the fact is that sometimes you
just don’t get to know why things go wrong. It has
been very disappointing and although she has now been
spayed she is still a very much-loved pet. This, if course,
was not the way I planned it and it is now back to square
one again. If anyone has ever played the game Snakes and
Ladders well that is what my experience of breeding has
been like so far.
I hadn’t expected that something would go wrong so
early on.
After saying all that I am not deterred. I really want to
start again and I hope I will have better luck next time. I
really enjoyed having the kittens around and help them
develop into lovely pets.
I hope to have another kitten by summer with a view to
breeding from her, but her kittens won’t be running
around for another year or so after that (if all goes well)
so it is not for the impatient. Meanwhile, I will just
enjoy the cats that I have as pets. What I have learned
about books however is not to believe all you read as I was
rather confused by all the information. It is largely the
author’s opinion and you may find that one book will
contradict the other so the best way to learn, apart from
your own experience, is to talk to the other breeders who
have years of experience. I also like to attend seminars
for breeders when they come along. There is always
something to learn and it is good to keep in touch with the
other breeders and club members to hear what is going on
with them. I would like to think that I did things right
from the beginning by getting all the information on the
breed and about breeding before getting into it. It
certainly is not a decision to be made quickly. It can be
lots of fun and it is very rewarding when it goes right but
if it goes wrong and it can go very wrong…well, I
haven’t truly been there yet.
I would like to say thank you to all the breeders who gave
me good advice and put up with my questioning, not to
mention my moans and groans. I have realised I am not alone
and I would like to think I could help somebody else
sometime with giving support if not being able to give them
the answers.
-o0o-
Why
you must sell your kittens, not give them away!
Re
breeding and homing kittens: you must not on any account
give away your kittens! I'm sure you said this to assure me
that you are not doing this to make money, but actually
giving away your kittens is very inadvisable: two litters
could be anything from 8-20 kittens: you have limited
friends and relations, and I'm quite sure that if they want
to have cats they already have them and do not want more!
If you are going to breed well it will cost you a lot of
money: in the region of £2000 per litter, after blood test
fees, stud fees, cost of food and litter for the babies for
13 weeks, vaccination costs for the litter, and any other
veterinary costs during rearing, or resulting from
complications during delivery requiring c-section, which
could be as much as £500-£1000 in addition. You need to set
out to do it as 'professionally' as possible, rather than
casually with the offspring given away to friends, and that
means registering the kittens and selling them to carefully
vetted homes. There is nothing to stop you from giving one
or two to friends who really want them, and would buy a
kitten elsewhere if yours weren't available, but even then
they should pay at least the cost of the vaccinations. You
will need the kitten money in any case to help with the
costs of breeding, even though selling the kittens will not
cover it nearly.
However, there is a more important reason for selling
rather than giving away pedigree kittens: asking someone to
pay a fair bit of money for a kitten is a way of ensuring
that they are serious about wanting it -- they are not
impulse-buying and will not simply abandon, or stop
bothering to care for it when it's no longer a cute,
entertaining kitten. If you pay £500 for a coat, you will
take care to hang it up and put it away properly, you will
dry clean it when it gets dirty. But if you only paid £10
for it, or got it for free, you would probably chuck it out
if it began to look a bit ragged. Obviously a coat is VERY
different from a kitten, but unfortunately this is how many
people's minds work, and as breeders we have to be aware of
that.
Also, by selling a kitten you create a contract between you
and the new owner which ensures they do not attempt to
breed from the kitten - which you MUST ensure to prevent
kitten farmers from starting. Even if the owners seem to be
good people they may know nothing about breeding and could
inadvertently harm their cat, and they may sell their
kittens to someone completely unscrupulous: I need to
ensure that my bloodlines can never be used in this way,
and the only way to do that is to be absolutely sure that
all the offspring are neutered. I am sure that you do not
intend anything untoward to happen to your kittens, but the
reason most stud owners will not even consider your request
to come to stud is for this very reason - you are not
intending to breed 'seriously', but only as a bit of fun,
but breeding has repercussions for generations, and you are
responsible for those future generations just as much as
for the kittens you breed yourself.
Normally, I would only allow registered cats belonging to a
registered breeder whom I know by reputation (if not
personally as well) to come to my stud. This way I know
that they follow codes of practice set down by the breed
clubs and the GCCF, and my lines will never appear in those
of a kitten farmer. I am very wary of breeders who are not
registered and not known to anyone I know, or within the
cat fancy. You could be a kitten farmer yourself, and I do
not intent my lines to get into that world. My reputation
rides on my cats and my care of them, and I will not take
risks with that for anything, just as I will not risk the
health of my cats by allowing a cat to come to stud without
blood tests and a health-check from me when they arrive.
You need to remember that if you cannot find the homes you
want for your kittens you will have to keep them yourself -
the same applies if for any reason there is something wrong
with any or all of the kittens and you cannot home them
because of that. Finding homes involves probably some
advertising, but please don't use things like 'LOOT' as
that is the way to find the wrong sort of homes! If you
have a website you may put your kittens there, or put them
on some good websites run by clubs or advertising kittens.
The best and most appropriate way to advertise them is
in Cat
World or
Your
Cat, as only
people genuinely searching for kittens will buy these
magazines, whilst things like LOOT tend to attract
impulse-buyers who have not really thought through the fact
that a kitten is a life, and something they are responsible
with for the next 15-20 years - very much like a child, and
with all the food and veterinary costs as well.
Still here? Congratulations, you've already learned more
than most people who think they would like to breed!
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